DISCUSSION POST

[kyriakosmods]

It’s time for our long-overdue game-wide discussion post! If there’s anything you’d like to bring up or discuss with the game at large, here’s the perfect chance. We have a few things to poll our playerbase about this time, as well, so please take a look!

Comments

Apps

[kyriakosmods]

So, as you have all noticed, our queue is very large and it has a long wait time. We’re aware this is frustrating for those of you stuck in the queue! There are a few options that we’ve been considering, but we’d also like to know your thoughts on it since you’re our playerbase!

Our first option is to just close apps until the queue shrinks down some. That is the safest option, to prevent the queue from growing any more and potentially making it even longer until people can get placed! On the other hand, this option doesn’t actually help the people who are already there past avoiding making the queue bigger. We could alternately only close apps for firsts while still allowing seconds, so people playing in the game can do so while waiting in the queue, or close seconds while allowing firsts, so seconds are taking up less space for new people. If we do close apps, they will reopen when the queue gets small enough! We would adapt to having app windows in this case.

The second option would be to open up a new team! While this would get people out of the queue very quickly, it runs the risk of destabilizing the game and interteam balance, especially after the recent total kill game that has many characters in a bad way. We would also be hesitant to open up multiple new teams, as that makes the risk worse. We also have a lot of new gamerunners and we don’t want to overwhelm them with teams they may not be totally ready to handle!

The third option is both! This both lowers the queue by opening up new teams to place people on, and stops the queue from getting worse again, but in case of sudden turnover, it could (potentially) become difficult to refill teams again.

The fourth option is something we haven’t thought of yet! If you have any ideas we haven’t thought of, let us know and we’ll consider it.

We’d like your opinions on what you as players would like to see or consider the best option!

Re: Apps

[takewing]

I'd like to note that opening up new teams doesn't actually help queues at all in the long run! Last time it caused a huge (if understandable) surge in apps, which lead to the current situation.

My vote would be to close apps completely for the time being, until the queue has dropped to something more manageable. If turnover stays at the same pace, reconsider opening a single new team in a month or two, while keeping apps closed.

Re: Apps

[saburai]

I'm personally in favor of option 3, out of those choices - there are 22 people in queue currently, by my count, so letting 6 in still leaves 16 people there for filling in any potential drops or idling out.

Another option that a friend suggested to me, which could potentially ease the concerns of team overload, is simply adding another core slot to each team. I don't know exactly what the concerns might be with such an option, but it would allow for 9 more people to get into play, and they'd be spread out enough that I wouldn't think it would have the potential of causing sudden turnover any more than the current set-up does. Theoretically, if you added one more slot to each team and then in the future added a tenth team, that would give you 16 placements - still less than the number of people in queue.

I will admit that I do have a vested interest in queue movement, though, so that might color my opinion.

Re: Apps

[squeakofthedevil]

As someone in the queue, I would of course be selfishly happy if more teams were opened. (also it's thematic!! YOU NEED ALL THE ANIMALS.) Aside from my own greediness though, and considering how slow turnover seems to be otherwise, it could be a long, LONG time before the queue dwindles otherwise. Like honestly as of right now I don't really see a solution besides adding new teams? It doesn't have to be immediately, of course, and I wouldn't recommend opening a bunch just to get rid of the queue. But at the current rate, people simply aren't dropping and opening spots regularly enough to handle the kind of waitlist you have, so I'm unsure how else the problem could be solved. However, I do think closing apps or at least moving to cycles is a good idea, to prevent the possible flood of apps that happened this time.

On the other hand, I understand that adding new teams does carry a risk if there's a sudden increase in drops. Buuut with the number of people in the queue or wanting to app? I honestly don't predict that being a huge problem. It could certainly happen, of course...but it could also happen at any time, even if no teams are added. I personally think it would be worth the risk, but that's just my own opinion, obviously. (I haven't modded a game in a long time, so I'll defer to other wisdom on it!)

I also think it would be a good idea to maybe look for a new mod- I know you're looking for a list helper but I also don't want you guys to get overwhelmed by the growing game if you do decide to open new teams!

Either way, I think it would help a little to be upfront on the queue page or the FAQ about JUST how long the wait can possibly be. This is nothing against you guys! It's just that, I obviously can't speak for everyone in the queue but I know that I and at least one other person were definitely not prepared for a multiple month wait, being new to this kind of team game, and it would have been very helpful to know what we were in for.

Re: Apps

[deathbot]

Unbiased section:

Hello! From a game running perspective, I don't think ten is a greater difficulty than nine. I've run games at eight, nine, ten, and twelve, so while I'm definitely not the most experienced runner in the game, I do have some experience in those numbers! Going to one more and reaching a round number would have multiple benefits, at least for myself:

- In the rare case that all teams present themselves, it would make one versus one or partner games simpler. An uneven number obligates that two teams will be together, or that three teams will have to partner. This actually makes games more difficult than an even number would, as now you have to balance around multiple team relationships.

- In the way, way more common case that only 50-80% of teams show up, it increases the overall pool of teams present for a game. Sure, that team misses that game, and this team misses that game, but overall there's more attendance. And this is a good thing! For example, I very nearly couldn't run cry wolf at all- When Kyriakos had 8 teams, it wouldn't have been very fun if 1 team didn't sign up, and it wouldn't have been possible at all if 2 skipped.

- I feel like having a greater pool of people and timezones to draw from would enable more flexibility in games, and timezones. There's a very strong pattern of running at say, 5pm Friday-Sunday, because those are where the majority of people show up. Even increasing the amount of people by six means more attenaance, which means more opportunities to be flexible.

More biased section: I've been in the queue for almost two mooooonths bit.

I think that, given the amount of queue already present, it would be literally impossible for the queue to shrink so much that ten teams would destabilize the entire game. At a quick look, losing six still gives you fifteen. You would still have a queue with two entire team drops, and those drops would probably only be from the new team, because I believe, though I'm not very certain, that the current kyriakos drop rate is something like one to two people a month?

Even then, most people swap out, or immediately requeue, they don't drop. The game is super-ultra-mega stable. All teams present seem to have or are quickly developing an extremely strong team identity with their own unique strategies and viewpoints on how to handle games, which I think I saw in play in the maximum TPK game.

So I support going to ten from the selfish and from the game running perspective. Even if you remove seconds to also help balance this, I will cry a bit to myself but I totally understand that firsts have priority.

However, I really like Peko's suggestion up top that maybe adding a new slot would help? There are teams with low turn out who could do with the extra hand, and it would definitely help with the stuff up from top from a game runner perspective.

Re: Apps

[pawper]

As someone with a second character in the queue, I'd much rather avoid the second option until there's enough suitable characters to properly make up a new team. Waiting isn't fun, no, but the short-term enjoyment of being placed isn't worth the potential long-term consequences.

And that's....pretty much the extent of my thoughts on apps/preferences, because I don't have enough experience at this kind of thing to properly judge options for the most part.

Re: Apps

[solivagant]

I'm kind of in favor of increasing the amount of people on teams to 7. It is more CR to manage, but I find that easier to manage since we're all always showing up to the same posts and dealing with mainly the same issues/events for obvious reasons.

As for closing apps or opening another team I kind of feel like that depends more on how big you want the game to be.

Re: Apps

[awwwkward]

I have no character in the queue so I don't have a metaphorical horse in this race, but I like the idea of adding a new slot to make teams of 7! My mind does tend to tilt into thinking there are 7 people on a team already, and that's what I'm used to (most of my teams have had 8 members for a while I think...). I understand it might be more CR to keep up with, but if gamerunning with another team would be a concern then that's one way to alleviate it. I think it also increases chances of at least one person on team being able to make it to games which might help teams all around have a more balanced win/lose rate, though of course that might not always be the case.

While I would love new teams I think, at least right now, it would make things a little haywire since there are already 3 teams that have just arrived within the IC week. (I wouldn't suggest opening up a new slot AND adding a new team though because that would be a lot of people, just one or the other.) Maybe close apps for a bit and wait, and if the game is steady and no one is dropping add a new team next month?

[sakazuki]

Hello! I got directed to this post by a friend. I'm not in the game (well, kind of), but I thought I would drop an opinion, from someone who's in the queue with their first character and been there for over a month now. So, just a bit of my perspective, even if it might be biased. I hope I'm not speaking out of turn or anything. If I am, I apologize in advance.

I think closing the apps will be a good idea for sure because drops and idles don't happen very often. If there are no more team additions, the queue will just grow up and it will get much larger than it is now, and people will be waiting longer. I'm the friend who suggested an additional slot to the team so needless to say, I am in favour of that one, haha.

My reasonings for this is my major concern about the queue growing and the wait time is increasing. Speaking from a first-character-in-queue perspective, this can lead to a loss of motivation. This isn't occuring with me, I'm still quite interested in the game, but I'm a bit afraid it might happen to other players, even for players who have a second character waiting in queue. By waiting for a very long time, there can be a drop in motivation on playing that one character or in the game, along with a percentage of their voice (if they're going to be playing this character for the very first time), if there is a long wait time. Not speaking from experience but from knowing other players from different games who also had to wait long periods of time, I do know that this is something that can happen for sure and it would be a shame to lose characters that way.

While I do understand the concern about increasing the number of major CR, I personally don't think it will be too much of a problem. However, I cannot speak from experience of how it is in this game, since I have never played in it before. Speaking from previous experience of playing a character who had 8+ major CR in another game, though, it can be difficult but not impossible. Communication is key for things like this, especially since in a close team, what happens to one character can greatly affect another.

Those are just my two cents on it! Sorry if I'm butting in or anything, but I thought maybe hearing from a first-character person might be interesting, haha.

NOW POSTED IN THE RIGHT PLACE oh my god i'm sorry for clogging your inbox with my comment and edit

Re: Apps

[acemedium]

I would go for the third. I think 10 teams is an easier number to work with for the reasons Rikki mentioned, and with apps closed for a while the queue has a much better chance of emptying out, especially with our stable current playerbase. I'm not worried about turnover because 22 people is still a lot, and 22 people is what we currently have, let alone any potential other apps should the queue empty out again.

My only other (tentative) suggestion is maybe an adjustment or slightly steeper AC? I don't mean to harp on anyone, but there are some characters who I barely see around, and I feel that's getting to be unfair to the people waiting.

A THING

[kyriakosmods]

ONE MORE IDEA that was brought up!

We have had in the works for a while a special team like Ophi or Knights, Kyr's own Cat team. This is a special team that does not operate like any of the others! Rather than playing for themselves, the cat team would be substitute members for other teams who are lacking in turnout in games, along with other duties! As a result, their memories would not be returned in the same way as other teams, and their numbers would not be limited to 6 either. The fine details aren't quite set in stone yet, but we know how to put it in play if it's a popular choice.

This could be instead of or in addition to another normal team. This is not a guarantee the team will come into play, but just interest gauging. What do you all think?

Re: Apps

[scrapthis]

Is adding more members to the already established teams an idea that's already been thought of? If we added one person to each of the nine teams that would be nine people no longer in the queue.

Re: Apps

[grandstanding]

My only real comment on the ideas raised so far is that if the existing teams are raised to seven members, I think the hobo slots should be disposed of. Eight characters on a team, I feel, would be too many.

I'm cool with how anything else goes! Adding a tenth team also sounds good because even numbers :U

Re: Apps

[assimilation]

MY THOUGHTS as someone with two already in the game, no one in the queue:

- Selfishly, I would like to keep apps open. I have several people who have expressed interest in being my castmates and just need a little bit to put the apps together. In addition, it makes it easy to drop and reapp with someone else, even if you know the waitlist would be a long thing. I always feel like closing apps will make it more dire to get them in -- and I know Aather suffered from the APPS ARE OPEN? 20 NEW ONES! for awhile, as did Soul Campaign...

- I would love it if we increased the number of people on the old teams! I think a lot of teams (mostly, I'm thinking of my own teams, especially Omelette) could do with some new blood, or perhaps a character who would work well with a team but also sort of 'push' them in a new direction. For example, a character who isn't so resigned in the face of trauma...

- THAT BEING SAID I think Hobo slots are a great idea and I *do* love the Hobo slot! I have been a hobo both here and in deco and I always am very thankful because it means I can skip the waiting and just jump straight back into the team dynamic. One thing that might be interesting is if you kept the slot even after raising the number, and then asked teams on a case by case basis, "would you be okay with eight teammates?" Considering I play on Turq and have previously been Legacy on Peridot *and* Citrine in Aather, I don't feel that eight teammates is too much different than seven -- but putting it up for team discussion might be nice, and if they agree they don't want eight teammates, that person could wait in the queue or something...

- CAT TEAM CAT TEAM selfishly I would also hope that characters could make an IC choice to join cat team as well (with of course like. OOC justification and running it by the mods and so on, it would be a process not like ZAP)...

I SAY THIS because I know part of the resentment that comes from the team/knights divide is because there are a decent number of heroes who just are not satisfied that they're on a team for whatever reason. People who are legitimately going "what makes them more special than us, that I have to be satisfied with being with a team and they, who aren't even knightly, get to be special and have special privileges?" I really don't want Cat to become a team like that because I've played that, and know how that works :x it's not fun!

Having people "swap" might also bring about some changeup in team lineout -- probably not a lot, since...you know, the teams are really close right now, no one might decide to leave, and players might enjoy being on the teams they're on, so forth. But idk it was just something that popped into my head.

- I'd love a regular new team anyway from a gamerunner standpoint. Odd numbers means that I can't run paired games if everyone attends -- and while usually in Kyr not every team attends every game, we have been picking up speed lately and I think it could potentially happen one day.

Re: Apps

[anarchydemocracy]

hi mora here

I'm super late on this but my opinion is definitely the third one. I actually agree that a new team would make game-running a bit cleaner and I think at worst wouldn't really destabilize anything. At the same time I'd still like to see that wait awhile since it doesn't seem like Alecytron has had much time to settle in, plus it actually hasn't been very long IC since we got Tiamat, Dawon, and Alecytron in general.

But, Peko's idea to add a core slot is pretty great and I think would be fine to throw in now! In terms of team CR I don't really feel that one extra person is that much more, and in terms of running games definitely in most games I've seen there's a few teams that only have one or two members playing so the boost would be nice.

AS FOR HARDER AC, I think 'one thread with team and one somewhere else' would be good. I admit I haven't really seen a problem with people not being that active but still hanging in the game but also I'm not super attentive to people who aren't active anyway. In any case, the AC is suuuuper easy as it is and could stand to be tightened up a bit.

also cat team yes

I DO have to admit I am kind of worried about something that was mentioned re: motivation in that if a bunch of new slots are opened up and people get added in, they might have been waiting so long that they just kind of feel bleh about the whole thing and drop immediately -- I'm starting to feel that way with the character I currently have in the queue where I'm significantly less excited to play, and I've been there a lot less time than most everyone else. It happened with Aather, too, and while I'm sure a lot of people don't feel the same way I do about that I think it's still a concern.

On the other hand, the queue pretty huge so there shouldn't be problems as long as a super large amount of slots aren't opened at once. Like Rikki said, there'd have to be like two entire team drops before it's empty even if either one of adding a new team or adding core slots to currently existing teams is done.

Re: Apps

[wingtamer]

15 MINUTES LATE WITH STARBUCKS i am here to +1 cat team in addition to another option, i.e. opening up another team/adding a slot to the teams, ALTHOUGH i do think that the number of members in each team should also be considered in hand with the question of What Happens When A Character Regains Everything? because in aather there's the legacy option and in decollage there was the option of "blank" memories (and thus kind of a legacy option but still getting to play games). if there IS some sort of legacy option in store for us then in the long-term it's going to get unwieldy to open up another slot in the team/make the maximum 7, as a few players have already experienced in aather. of course, this is under the assumption that the hypothetical kyriakos equivalent to legacying is available for every character. at the same time it's also very likely to get unwieldy anyway with the legacy option... \'-'/

also +1ing a different activity check! not aather-intense but biweekly, i think, would be good? naturally AC wouldn't be like, 40 comments every 2 weeks but maybe 20 comments every 2 weeks - so a little over aather's AC but over twice the timespan. it's definitely not fair to the people waiting in the queue to be waiting when there are idle characters, but it's also not very appealing to have a weekly activity check (especially bc that means much more work for the mods if you do it aather style) so an in-between would be nice, i think? it doesn't really even have to be a biweekly AC so much as like, a monthly AC but requiring at least two threads (one from the beginning half of the month/before the 15th and one at the latter half of the month/after the 15th) to. . . not ensure a certain level of activity, but at least set the bar a little higher so there are a few more hoops to jump.

i do think that having an even number of teams is ideal, esp for paired games/versus team games, altho how cat team plays into it can potentially make it uneven too, and i am also +1ing van's concerns re: knyaaaights.

uhmmmm, but also regarding numbers, currently (as of pound being dropped) there are 8 potential openings (if y to removing hoboslot and adding a permanent 7th slot), plus an additional 7 openings (if y to adding a new team) and that would make the queue dwindle drastically - that would leave 7 left in the queue, and i think 7 is a good, manageable number? but also opening up a cat team would mean there are no more characters left in the queue \'-'/ what i am saying is that out of the three options for space in game, only a max of two options should be taken, but also that two options would likely be the better solution as opposed to just one option.

also, instead of having apps open all the time, you could have apps be open in intervals! then you can have a burst of queue influx instead of stray apps flying into the queue every so often. HOWEVER i feel having a set date for apps opening/closing can also .. lead to the opposite of the intended effect.. ( '-') because something being closed/unattainable for some period of time means potential appers will (depending on the level of interest) want to get their app in as soon as the next opportunity finds itself, whereas having them open all the time doesn't give the same sense of urgency. iirc the current influx of characters in the queue is largely due to advertising, and closing apps => opening them again when the queue is manageable is also... a form of advertising! :|a this is long and windy but it's my opinion (from what i've seen personally) that having an app cycle end up adding more to the queue than what is wanted! there's already a certain sense of urgency when it comes to apping into teamnesia games b/c of slots and getting your app in earlier generally means your app will get more consideration as time passes => an increasing likelihood in getting in game. so there doesn't.. really need to be any increase in sense of urgency bc then that's a concentrated influx of apps. a slow trickle is better than a flash flood????

(but who knows, i might be wrong about the above/maybe i am placing too much importance on it. also disclaimer, advertising is a gr8 thing because that means the game is getting more popular => more interest!! that is never a bad thing but in team games it should, as is already known, be handled with consideration.)


in conclusion i have decided that the relationship between a team game and the queue is like a waterwheel and should not be stagnant/not moving but also shouldn't be moving too fast and also apps should be treated like rain to a game's climate and 5AM is the best time for analogies.

Re: Apps

[swordedpast]

Belatedly, unfortunately, but my opinions on all of the above:

--Right now I think the best way to handle the queue would be to expand the teams to seven main slots, then at some point add a tenth team to make things easier on gamerunners. Not only would this immediately take a chunk out of the queue, it'd also likely create more turnover in the long-run, which is a good thing given the current state of the game (obviously too much turnover is bad, but so is too little, which is what we have right now). On top of that, there are some teams that have gotten kind of stagnant and could use some changes. On the other hand, adding a slot would not fundamentally alter the dynamic of the different teams the way adding Cats would.
--Cats are a great idea at some point, but it's a little early right now; I would wait until a little more of the setting has been explored and teams, especially the new teams, have a firmer idea of their place in it to introduce a special team entity so enmeshed in the game mechanics. At the moment, I think adding a seventh slot to teams would be more effective at increasing turnout than creating Cats to bolster teams with low turnout.
--Change the activity requirements to punish squatting more. Note that I do not say simply "make the AC harder," as I don't think it's that simple; rather, the AC should be specifically changed to disallow certain patterns of squatting that have cropped up. A few possibilities: make it twice a month so that people can't do one or two long threads at the beginning (or end) of the month and then disappear for the rest; require multiple threads spread out over different posts rather than allowing one top-level or appearances in a single team-post to suffice; require threads both with your teammates and characters from other teams.

Plot

[kyriakosmods]

Since it’s been a while since our last plot event, we were curious about how everyone was feeling about the game’s pace. Would you rather us move the plot a little more frequently, or are you all happy with our current pace?

Re: Plot

[swordedpast]

I don't really have a clear-cut opinion on "move the plot faster" vs. "stay at the current pace," but I would like to suggest finding a way to give characters regular constructive things to do beyond simply "play in games" and "grow things in the garden," basically--give characters who may be growing restless with the setting some way of feeling that they're working to uncover its mysteries and take some control over their environment.

Obviously, you can't constantly be revealing secrets (as you'd run out!), and since I don't know what your setting secrets ultimately are, I can't offer concrete suggestions on how to keep characters from feeling hopeless and players from feeling stagnated. The best I can say is that I think some characters are growing weary of the system they've been presented of "play games to restore your memories and worlds," and it'd inject some energy into the game to give them a way to feel they are working to change or learn more about the system, even if it actually turns out to be not that simple.

Re: Plot

[takewing]

My suggestion with regards to plot would be to focus on smaller, more low-key things for the time being! Stumbling upon a page with MYSTERIOUS CODE ON IT OHO SOMETHING TO SOLVE can be just as, or even more, engaging as some big huge thing that can't be opted out of.

I actually really like coded mystery stuff because EVEN IF YOU SUCK AT CODES OOCly everybody can get together to talk about it, which means that it's not really a first come first serve thing. '^'

Re: Plot

[unguilded]

^ adding to what's been mentioned above a little. I'd like more little things like that! But maybe ones that connect to each other in some way? So teams would have to work together more to solve and talk about things.

Like the last little run that happened got some buzz, but it hasn't really gotten out between the teams so it doesn't give people who weren't involved or close to the involved really anything new to play with just yet. Maybe another mini thing that connects to that but gets discovered by other characters so they'd have to exchange info and the like to try to figure things out would help? So it's not just something to do in that small window of time, but since it's related to another discovery, it'll brew up more cross team interactions as they talk more about it.

That said of course maybe there can be a kind of silent courtesy rule that when something else comes up, characters who just did something or already know something can sit it out (especially since they'd still get to do things when those new characters come back with it).

Game-running

[kyriakosmods]

This is more of a general topic that gamerunners and players can use to toss around game ideas, help each other design games, or say things that they’d love to see happen as a game.

Re: Game-running

[secretbooty]

I need to see what my work schedule is going to be like before I run anything, since I'm starting work this week, but! I have ideas and I really want to do them. I GUESS THIS IS MOSTLY AN INTEREST COMMENT OF "do you want to play these things."

- TWITCH PLAYS POKEMON, Kyriakos Edition. It would be hella simplified but I have ideas that people've helped me figure out a little...

- SAVE THE CITIZENS, a la the event in Guild Wars 2 right now which is saving citizens from a major hub city that got destroyed. I have ideas for this one too, but it could be interesting and I want it to be flexible for all playstyles so people can go FUCK 'EM ALL or be heroic. IIIIT WOULD ALSO NOT BE A TRAUMA GAME even if Bad Things Are Happening.

- Idols The Game, make someone on your team an idol and MANAGE THEM but this is the vaguest one of them all.

- Cuddle bingo but maybe after trauma fallout dies down because I feel like asking some teams to cuddle now or in the immediate future might be a bad idea um.

- I swear I'll figure that Princess game out too.

why am i getting all these ideas when my free time is about to go down

Re: Game-running

[squeakofthedevil]

BATTLE OF THE BANDS

BATTLE OF THE BANDS

BATTLE OF THE BAAANDS

Anything else!

[kyriakosmods]

Is there anything that you’d like to address? We want to do our best to improve as a game so we would love to hear your thoughts! This can involve anything from game mechanics to team balance to "the game would be improved by having baby seals everywhere".

Re: Anything else!

[pchaaair]

... Guys the more I stare at this subheader the more I want baby seals. :(

Y/N/DEBS BABY SEALS IN KYRIAKOS IS A BAD IDEA BECAUSE LEPUS WILL PROBABLY EAT THEM